How to Rank with PR + Authority Link Building! ft Chris Panteli

How are you? I'm very good. Thank you, Julian. How are you?

Yeah, good. Good. What sort of stuff in PR are you working on right now? Relationship building is the thing which is moving the needle for us.

So managing and growing and maintaining relationships with tier one journalists, that has been our bread and butter for the past six months. So we're doubling down, tripping down on that because that's where the gating opportunities are. The ability to get coverage for clients where rather than them posting a harrow request or looking in their inbox, if they can just come back to us directly and say, hey, look, I've worked with you so many times before, you've given me so many great experts. Can you help me with this article with a doctor or a realtor?

And we just go, yeah, of course we can, because we've got that relationship. We just cut out everything else. It needs to be systematized in a way that isn't like a CRM system. Yeah.

So sometimes you can't always follow the SOP. I find that's the same with sales as well. You can't SOP everything in sales, for example. Yeah.

There has to be some sort of skill, I suppose, doesn't there? Some go off script when it calls for it. So we have SOPs for it and we do have a CRM system where relationships are moved through a point, but really it needs to be handled by individuals that own that relationship and then that's where the magic happens. Yeah, it makes sense.

Do you still use Harrow for link building and PR? Yeah. Harrow is still a good source. Harrow, press plugs, quoted.

What we mainly do is inbound. We don't really do outbound for SEO, digital PR, so I put it into two buckets of what we're doing currently. SEO, digital PR, which is where the entire purpose of the campaign is for a fixed set of deliverables, which will be links. A number of links from a package, five links, 10 links, 20 links.

We will pitch inbound requests because it gives us the opportunity to get the highest quality publications and we won't stop until we land all of those links. There'll be a nice byproduct of some unlinked mentions, branded mentions as a result of doing a campaign, but the point of that campaign is to get the most authoritative links for that business. On the other side, we do what we call authority PR, which is more of a traditional PR type engagement. And that's where we're not looking at just the link for the deliverable, we're looking for coverage.

Here, one premium coverage, and that's like a month to month thing that as you can imagine starts off a bit slower, but builds momentum as we go, as we start putting clients in front of the media and in front of like trade and we start building their presence. And that's where we're looking for things that are above and beyond the algorithmic value of a SEO link. It could be, for example, we work with a Texas based real estate brokerage owner. In the last month alone, we got him a talking head TV appearances on Bloomberg and CNBC.

We've had New York Times do an op-ed piece on him where they sent a journalist and a photographer to his house to do like a full piece in the New York Times. We've got byline pieces for him on housingwire and realtor.com and it's just a continual building momentum of that sort of coverage, which demonstrably builds your authority for the business owner and their business. Yeah. It's kind of like almost above backlinks, isn't it?

It's kind of like, well, you're building your authority, particularly with AI, I can imagine where you're getting so many mentions from so many authoritative pieces, the AI really sees you as a brand. Well, that's, yeah. I mean, that's, that's the view. Like we're in a different era of search now, aren't we?

Like it used to just be, where do you want to be found? Google. Google. You knew it.

Content and links. And like, that was it, wasn't it? Like, you know, that was it. That was the game.

And then if you wanted to be on social, then you would do social stuff. But now it's like the AI is like that sort of place where you go to have those conversations and those journeys, and they lead you to different places to find people. And I think to the brands that are going to get surfaced across all of the places that one can be discovered is going to be the brands that really build and maintain brand. Like how else are these systems going to like delineate a form of trust?

And that's how Google did it, wasn't it? Don't forget the whole point of a backlink was just Google saying, we've come up with this way of like presenting results, but how are we going to trust the results that we put on our first page? Like if somebody's claiming that they've got a cure for cancer and they've written a blog post on it, like how can our algorithm know whether or not to put that on page one? Because it's potentially like extremely dangerous, isn't it?

So their idea was, all right, we'll use links. If like a bunch of sites that we know that we can trust because they're huge and like everyone's heard of them, like the BBC or the New York Times are linking to that website, then that's a sign to us that, okay, maybe we can trust these guys a little bit because these other people that we definitely trust are linking to them. And so obviously that's like progressed now to like AI search systems. So how are they going to like know who they can trust when they're formulating their answers?

We don't know for sure, but I think a safe bet would be they're going to trust like brands. Yeah, for sure. I was speaking to Charles Floyd the other day about this and he was saying, for example, there's certain AIs, like for example, ChatGPT, where they're allowed to use those sources. I think it was like Washington Post was one example.

And they can actually use that to pull in results. So when they're weighting the search results and ranking other brands, it's like they're going to favor some of these big, big editorial places because it's almost like a partnership with that brand. So of course they're going to rank them higher. So if you get mentioned on them, then the AI sees you as more of an authority, right?

Well, yeah, I mean, that's the thought. The other thing is as well, what we've noticed, especially when we've been doing our testing inside of the AI searches for things like med spas or like surgical procedures and stuff. If you go inside a ChatGPT and you ask for like, where do you recommend I go for like Botox in New York? It's not coming back and saying like, you should go to this clinic, this clinic, and this clinic.

It's saying you should go and see this doctor at this clinic, or you should go and see this surgeon at that clinic. So you've got to think that it's looking at different entities in order to surface its recommendations. And that could be like, they want to see who they can trust. Not just, okay, this clinic is trusted, but oh, this Dr.

Julian Goldie is like best guy to give Botox in New York. So you should go and see the Goldie clinic and go and see Dr. Julian Goldie. Like don't do that because Goldie will mess up your face.

He doesn't know what he's doing when it comes to Botox. Do you understand what I mean? Yeah, yeah. No, I see what you mean.

Like, do you think the AI values mentions more than backlinks if it's from the right source? Potentially. Yeah. I mean, we know that they see them, don't we?

I haven't got any data on it. It's so hard to tell, isn't it? But if you run in like prompts on your own business inside of an incognito chat GPT, looking at the sources that it shows you, the sources aren't based on like the links within those sources. It's not like, okay, we're going to go to the National Dental Association in order to look at what dentists we can trust.

And we're going to mention these five dentists because the National Dental Association website links to them. No, it's because the National Dental Association website mentions these five dentists. So I mean, you can see it in the wild clearly that it doesn't need to be links, but yeah, mentions are extremely powerful. And I think mentions give context as well, don't they?

And a consensus of information as well. So if everywhere on the internet, Julian Goldie is being talked about with being an AI expert and knows everything about AI and AI automation, and you're contextually seeing that not just on your own properties, your YouTube channel via the transcripts or your website or social media, but other places saying Julian Goldie is an expert in AI, then that starts to become something which the LLMs can trust as a consensus of information across platforms. And therefore if one of its users goes in and says, hey, who's the best person in AI to like follow or like absorb their material, it's going to be more confident in recommending you because it's seen it in more places than just the places that you own. Yeah, that makes sense for sure.

And it's less bias. It's like, it's using external sources that would be very hard to manipulate yourself. Yeah. But I mean, it feels exhausting though, doesn't it?

Like to think of that before, all you had to do was like buy some dodgy links, write some content, rank, and like, that was it, job done. Like now you've got to, what, be everywhere and be a brand? Like, yeah, it sounds- It is. I mean, it is.

The great thing is there's no secret and it's like, you know what to do. But the bad news is if you're just a plumber in Lancaster or something like that, there's no way you're going to do all that yourself. I love that. And that is so true.

It is no secret. And, and in the past it was, wasn't it? Like what is this DR5 site ranking like above me? I've done everything right.

I've written good content. I haven't bought dodgy links. Why am I not getting traffic? And this DR3 is, oh, they've got a, you know, a sophisticated PBN network behind them.

Like now, yeah, it's okay. You actually just need to do like real marketing, be everywhere. Like you, for example, yeah, exhausting, or you can utilize AI in order to, to help with that. But the plumber, yeah, he's not necessarily going to be able to do it all on all, all himself, but he can definitely make a start like engaging with the media.

We can talk about that if you want. Like there is definitely a place for that for home service business or professional services. Like they can start on their own, but I suppose what you need to do is like allocate budget to this activity because it is the thing that if you don't, then your competitors will and they will surpass you. Yeah.

It's even easier to be invisible with AI, particularly if you don't do the right things right now. It's like, yeah, if you don't do it, your competitors will, and you won't just be second or third. It's like, you're just literally not there. You're not even in the mentions.

Yeah. Which is scary. Isn't it? A hundred percent.

So, you know, you mentioned about engaging with the media. What's your process for a PR campaign? So we like to do, like I said, inbound requests. I think it's the creme de la creme of quality.

I think outbound has just become like really difficult. You have to just you've seen the pieces like the bottom of the barrel stuff is the stuff that like, you know, is I spot the difference campaign picture for like a casino client or something. It's like it's it's just it's it's just feels a bit icky. Whereas like if you have like a journalist that's writing an article on, I don't know, the fact that sports betting is like two X in in the US since the World Cup and it's on like it's in The Guardian and they're looking for like an expert to comment and you can legitimately provide that expertise as commentary from from like a casino CFO or something like that, then you've got like a really good shot of appearing in that article.

And that is a much higher quality form of PR than than anything else. I think. So, yeah, we love inbound requests. You can see them on places like Harrow for free.

You can see them in places like Quoted, which is like a freemium model source of sources, which is Peter Shankman, who is the original founder of Harrow, his his his new platform, which is also free. And there's a bunch of other places, response source, press blogs, editorial. You can follow journalists on social LinkedIn, Twitter, set the alerts. They'll often use the hashtag general request.

And then for us, obviously, the big advantage of having been done this for like half a decade is that we just have like a huge pre-existing network of journalists that will bypass all of that and just come directly to us and say, you know, got any health clients, got any X clients, got any Y clients? And we can just go, yeah, here's the commentary. And then hopefully it goes into the article. So that's been our bread and butter.

And then when it comes to like the authority PR stuff, that's that is all relationship. And that's like putting a client in front of the media and saying, like starting slow, like this is the client. This is like sort of what they are talking about, what they're interested in. Is this something which fits in with what with what you're currently doing?

So it's very different to send in like a journalist, like a press release like, I don't know, health expert reveals five places you should never put sun cream. And like you send it to a bunch of people that have covered something vaguely similar in the past six months. Like journalists get that all the time. Whereas like maybe if what we're doing for authority PR is like we're going to like the three or four like biggest health journalists in the UK, three or four, five, six biggest in the U.S.

saying like, hey, like we're working with this doctor currently who's invented this new sun cream, let's say. I mean, that would be great if you had a client that. But like just for example, you know, you guys working on anything where you'd like some like to talk with him, maybe like an interview or, you know, anything where you think he could contribute because he's this great doctor that's invented this amazing new sun cream. And it starts slower because it's very introductory and conversational.

But you can see that that could then lead to a TV appearance on like this morning, let's say, because new doctor releases. So it's just it's a lot more. The results are a lot cleaner, I think. And it's a lot more fun.

And that momentum thing happens every time. It's like it's not like a what you call it where something is not a fluke. Like that's what happens. Like you build momentum.

So so that's what we do. And that's what we that's what we love to do. And actually, I think there is like a real place for this. I remember me and you were at a conference.

Was it two years ago? Was it Dubai? Yeah, we were at the Mastermind. I think you were on the table with Nick, my business partner.

I was on the table. I remember we were all thinking then like, Jesus, is there going to be like a place for us as like link agencies? And like, you know, it was getting pretty scary, wasn't it? Because like it was like this.

I mean, it's gone. Imagine then how quick it felt like it was moving. The AI stuff compared to like now. But anyway, but I genuinely think there is a place for it.

And I feel like we've done like a full circle. I still think there's a place for link building because it's it's a branded mention or it's a you know, it's a an entity mention as well as a link. So you get like double bubble, but also really building brand and being in front of the media. There's going to be a place for that for four years to come, I think.

And that's exciting. Yeah. And also I can imagine there's so many people who are so lazy that they're using like just AI slot to reach out to these journalists that when they actually get something human where you can see there's a lot of like time that's been put into that campaign, then you actually stand out a lot more than you would before. Yeah, you you would you would be so surprised how like a human sentence can be the thing that resonates with a journalist like or just just being like just being not a lad, but being like normal.

Like a journalist wrote to me the other day and they were like, yeah, well, I was I was handling one piece of communication with a journalist and it came back saying this is this is brilliant. We're going to get this out in the next week or so. In the meantime, if you if you've got anything else or, you know, if there's any edits that your client wants to make, feel free to shoot them over. And I put something about like, that's awesome.

You've made my day. It's like five o'clock. I'm sweating through my shirt because this heat wave is killing me. And they came back saying, like, oh, you've just made my day because I thought I was the only one stuck inside on this beautiful day.

And like that, I wouldn't have done that if I had never. It would have made a terrible joke or something. Yeah. But now that journalist is like it's almost like a reassurance that journalists now thinks, oh, this guy is like human.

He's real. He's all right. He's normal. Like and I don't I mean, I use all the time.

My default sort of workflow in Gmail is just the Gemini rewrite dictation. What I want to say, like blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then just Gemini, let it rewrite it. So I use it a lot if it's not in.

And I'll always use like a like a de facto prompt in there to like retain as much as my original word in as possible, but just tidy up for like narrative logic and formatting. And that way you keep your human voice in it. And, you know, that is a differentiator in today's world. Yeah, that makes sense.

When you're doing the outreach on Harrow or, for example, you're following journalists, you have like a certain this just the way my mind thinks is like you have a certain number of people that you try and reach out to per day for a client or if you if you're trying to get links for someone. Well, we work the other way around. So we'll take every single valid opportunity that meets all of our quality criteria and is a valid opportunity. So it's not like I'm looking for someone in the Russian government to give me a comment on X, Y and Z.

Well, we haven't got any clients that are in the Russian government, so that's not a valid option. So take all the opportunities which are valid. Then we distribute amongst clients that we think meet the criteria. And then we'll try and like pitch as much as we can without being over the top and where it makes sense.

So we have like a lot of travel clients. There's no point of seeing like one travel query for like BBC travel and pitching it from like 30 people. I mean, we'll do a few, but we sort of we want to try and find that balance of like where you've given the journalists like enough, but you're not not overwhelming them. Yeah, that makes sense.

Makes sense. And then I know you mentioned about starting slower. How long does it usually take to get momentum for something like that? For like a classic SEO, Harrow campaign?

It depends. There is a number of criteria that will determine the speed of a campaign. So it all starts with the business niche, the expert representative and then the credentials, qualifications and the like the visibility of that expert. So how PR friendly the niche is, that's like significantly important.

And it doesn't need to be directly like it doesn't need to be direct. It can be tangential, but it needs to fit into a into a bucket. And then also you need to have a client understanding and expectation of what it is that we're trying to do. Like if you're doing an SEO digital PR campaign, if we're going to go and pitch the media to get you a link, like the goal is the link, right?

If you own an email deliverability company like we ain't going to be getting you in like tier one media talking about email deliverability, like maybe a trade publication here and there potentially. But like if you want to be in The New York Times, they're not really writing like interesting journalistic pieces on email deliverability. So we've got to fit you into like let's say you've got a good founder, good LinkedIn profile. He's a CTO.

He's the founder of the, you know, he's the chief technology officer of this email delivery. You fit neatly into the technology sort of niche. OK, then we need to make sure that your company is clearly like optimized to be forward facing to the media. So really good, visible about page, the amount of businesses that we'll see on the sales corner.

It's like a legit business. And like I can't find the about page link. Like it's not in the header. It's not in the photo.

And it's got like a weird drop down that says like, like not learn more, but like it might say like, who are you? And then you'll go there and then it'll be like, what do we do? Who we are about us. So you imagine if a journalist is being pitched like by 50 people, they're going to do their due diligence.

They're going to check the website. They're going to check a social media profile, normally LinkedIn. So you need to make it as easy as possible for them to be able to like verify you as a human. So that's the sort of the pre steps, like be optimized, be demonstrably visible and have credentials that fit inside of that broad niche.

If we if you're a technology company, then you need to have a CTO. If you're a rehabilitation center, then we need like one of your medical people to pitch us. Like that's how the game is played. That's how it works.

And that's how you win at the game. And then yet to answer your question, a fast campaign will be where all of those things are in like the sweetest possible alignment. So health is extremely good for PR, loads of inbound requests. It's a really popular topic.

Doctors do really well because they're doctors. And then if you own like, you know, a private hospital or plastic surgery clinic in London, let's say. and we have your chief of surgery to pitch as, and your website is great, and you have got great social media and social presence, then that will be a fast campaign. And then obviously it's the opposite for anything less than that.

Yeah, that makes sense. So there is, I mean, obviously, you talked about LinkedIn profile, you talked about having a good about me page. Are there any ways you can optimize your brand for getting PR? Yeah, so consensus is one of the biggest things, and we don't see that.

And I think that's one of the big levers that smaller businesses can pull. So if you own a plumbing company in Texas, and you're called Bill's Plumbing, but you're also sometimes called Bill's Plumbing Texas, or you have a variation in your brand name, and it's different across social, and then on your LinkedIn, you haven't set up a company page. So where it's got your LinkedIn profile, and on the bottom right, you've got a grayed out icon. All of these things are just, you're dropping the ball.

You wanna have that absolute, like Bill's Plumbing, your NAP, name, address, phone number, consistency of information. It needs to be exactly the same on the website. Your Facebook profile, the same banner, the same profile picture, the same sort of one-liner about your business or your credentials. Company pages need to be set up and linked across to your personal pages as well.

And you need to have that across your brand everywhere. And I'll often see people that will come to us, and they'll have, maybe they're from the old school SEO days where they would just rank in because they knew how to rank, and they'll have a business they've started, which is a health tech business. And they'll say, look, we wanna do a campaign. I want me to be the person behind it for this health tech business.

And I'll look at the LinkedIn profile, and it'll say SEO expert on the profile. No journalist is gonna link to you as a health expert when it says SEO expert on you. So you have to have that. You have to have those relevant skills and credentials within a PR-friendly niche, and your brand has to be, you have to have a consensus of your brand everywhere that you're positioning yourself.

Yeah, that makes sense for sure. I think that's probably something I could tidy up personally in terms of just like the right branding, consistent branding, the same images across each profile. I think we've got like four different Instagram profiles. No, really?

Yeah. Yeah, I was gonna ask you about that, because we talked about this just before we came on, but you're sort of in like a couple of buckets, aren't you, I suppose? But I think Goldie, the word Goldie is like, I suppose the core of the brand, isn't it? And then I was looking at your video, I think yesterday, and noticed you had like a model watching benchmark site, Goldie Benchmark.

I thought that was great. So I was looking through your Goldie Bench. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Goldie Bench, yeah, yeah.

So I think that it's quite clear your brand, but like you don't have to just like, many people with personal brands have like multiple businesses. So I'm not saying you have to pigeonhole yourself, but like that should then be sort of housed under that personal brand. So everything you do is sort of like branded as Goldie. So if you look at like Homozy, he's got like lots of things, but like he's the sort of the overarching brand and then he does those multiple things underneath.

Yeah, I think he's very good at organizing it all to be fair to him. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I loved your benchmarking as well, by the way. It is good.

Yeah, I think that's like, one thing I learned from creating YouTube videos was just document everything. So if I'm testing loads of AI anyway, might as well organize it on like a nice website where I can see the actual benchmarks and what we've created. Tested out GPT 5.6 today, by the way, it's pretty interesting. Anyone watching, check out Goldie Bench, like there's some good stuff on there.

What, were you using the Sol model? Yeah, yeah, do you know what? We didn't even test Terra and Luna because like Sol's kind of Fable 5 level, but he's very, very good out of everything that I've tested. Like, yeah, right up there on the leaderboard.

Really? Yeah, but you told me before you're a- I'm a core man. I am. You're not gonna switch.

I think, do you know what? Like, I think the GPT 5.6 is really good and that's why we have it inside our agent operating system. But when I'm actually working on projects, I just want one place. And if my brain switches over to codecs and then over to perplexing computer, and then you've got, for example, something like Fusion in the background, it's like, it just gets very, very messy.

That's why we created an agent OS. But do you not think Fable will sort of, will become unusable once it's API usage only? Like, are you gonna use it in that capacity? Do you know what?

I would hope that Opus 5 comes out at some point and then it's right up there. But at the moment, Fable 5 was so good and it was so hard to go back to Opus 4.8 because it just makes so many obvious mistakes. I was like, okay, do you know what? This week I'll treat myself.

We'll just use the API and then I'll see how much time I save and see if it's worth it. How much have you spent on the API? I don't know. I've checked recently.

It didn't seem to be that much, but I'll probably get a big bill later. But it's not like crazy numbers. I mean, I see some people spending like $300 a day or, do you know what? I think $260 this week, considering I code with it for hours and hours, it's not too bad.

Yeah, yeah. That's not too bad. Yeah, yeah. So you think that, yeah, Fable, they'll bring out Fable and then that'll be just under Fable.

Yeah. Yeah, but I also think like they've got to do something because if you've got GPT 5.6 in Sol and everyone can access that frontier level, then no one's gonna use Claude because they'll all just switch over to Codex eventually. That's just the way people are, right? They just want like the best option for the cheapest price.

Yeah. And they've all shot themselves in the foot as well. They've been like, they've been dicking everyone around a little bit, haven't they? Like with the whole, I mean, I've been working on this project, which I'm not gonna like reveal anything about because it's awesome.

And Fable- You keep teasing about it, but you won't tell me what it is. I can't because it's so good. It's just, it's an idea that we had to increase our ability to get tier one links for clients. And the idea was like, bore out of like this conversation and it's like pretty simple, but execution-wise needed a lot of backend build.

And it needed that sort of ability to say to a model, which Fable was able to answer like, hey, I've got this idea. It needs to do this. If that happens, we need to have this here, new guardrails or the guardrails can be kept, but they need to be changed. And he says, can it, can it be done?

Fable's like, yeah, yeah, I can do it. I'll plan it. And it's like, okay. So then iteration, iteration, iteration, like went live shit, like a link in the first day, like tier one, like, yeah.

And then I'm just basically trying to absolutely optimize the hell out of it before I lose access. So when Claude said, you'll, you'll be losing it. Was it last Friday? Did they say we had until the original deadline?

I saw your Facebook post about it and you were like trying to, trying to rinse it. And then it went down like an hour before it's about to go. Yeah. Then it went down.

And then like the two days later, we're extending the deadline. I was like, oh God, stop messing with me. Yeah. It's really interesting though.

I had the same situation. So for me, like non-technical, not developer, can't even write HTML or anything like that, but we built our agent operating system, which is like the craziest thing. You know, we, for example, built our own Jarvis with this system, like real time, instant voice activated agent. And like, I was just like, can you do this?

And it was like, yeah, yeah, yeah. I was like, okay, well let's try it and see what it's like. And just the same as you, within a few hours of testing and building it, it actually does exactly what you want. And it's like, wow, it's almost magic at this point.

So explain that, explain that to me then. Cause if I, if I'm able to have some leftover fable before it turns, maybe I'll try and do the same. So is it, is it housed locally? Is it in the cloud?

Is multiple agents, you building the agents? Like what's the high level of it? Yeah, let me show you an example. So this is the mission controller we have.

So you can see the screen here, right? Okay, so you've got it as a, is that like a hosted app or is that like a local? Local, but you can, you can set it up on VBS. So you can have it on like mobile or whatever.

And then, so it's got the basics, like you can see all your agents, you got like your to-do list. And then for example, you've got Hermes over here in separate profiles. So you can have like a Hermes profile for each API you want to test. Then you can talk to it.

We have a voice activated agent here that you can talk to and it can do stuff in real time. And then you can, for example, put it in wall mode, talk to it, ask it to do stuff and it can build things as well. So you can see all the things that were built with it over here. And then we have, for example, Hermes Oracle, where it's really good for SEO.

Like it pulls in the latest trending news every few hours from Twitter, ranks it by what's trending. And then if we want to create like social media content around that and retweet it, we just click on draft this and it'll draft the content. If we want to publish SEO content about it, we can just click on publish to WordPress and it will publish straight to WordPress. So for example, if we go back to the published articles over here, these are all articles we've published straight to WordPress, just literally from that news, which is crazy.

And then, yeah, that website is doing pretty well. Yeah. And the same, for example, it monitors our competitors here. So it's called Hermes Astros, which is just a custom tool we made.

So every 24 hours, it looks at our competitors, see what people have created. And then based on that, it gives us a unique angle, unique title, and we can plug that into our video agent, our SEO agent, or notebook client. So like- That is awesome. And then we even created a custom outreach tool here for building backlinks where you can basically, you can generate, you can type in whatever you want to create links to or find leads for.

It will give you a list with the email addresses and the leads enriched. And then from there, if you want to draft the campaign, the email campaign to send out, you tell the AI what it's about and it'll write it for you. And then you can manage all your campaigns over here. You can pause them, delete them, activate them.

And Hermes agent can actually manage your inbox and your emails and everything else. So this is like a SaaS tool in this whole system. And that's just like one tiny part of it. And then for example- Did you build this with Fable?

With Fable 5, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then you have like, you know, you've got Codex, you have like all your memory system here. So all your agents link to, have all the context about you and everything you've worked on across every single agent.

And this gets- automatically updated. So this was updated an hour ago. And yeah, just is like, even we've got like a movie creator inside there called Open Montage. They can create amazing films and stuff like that.

We can create a video agent. So we've got this video agent that can create like avatar videos just by telling you exactly what you want. And it will create the full video. And it gives me as AI voiceover and everything else.

So it's insane. That's awesome. That is awesome, yeah. And that's all as a local project, you just connect all of the APIs and everything and then just got, yeah, able to.

Yeah, exactly. And then like we have a agent that just exports the file and then we give it to the community and they can just, the cool thing is like, you don't need to use API either because you can just use your CLIs like Claude and everything else inside it. So like GPT 5.6 comes out this morning, we plug in GPT 5.6 into the system. That's awesome.

Man, that's great. Yeah, it's cool. It's a lot of fun as well to build, so yeah. You know what I say?

And I said, I genuinely believe this because it's got to the point now where there is no technical, theoretically there is very little technical boundary. The skill is the ideas, like having the idea and the creativity of what to build, what to do to enhance and to, you know, that's the skill. Yeah, I totally agree. It's like, just look at all the problems you have and then try and figure out a way to solve them with Fable 5.

Yeah. Yeah. And keep an eye on the usage when it turns to API. I've seen some horror stories, man.

I saw some posts like, yeah. One, did you not see when the Claude released that they were extending it? And like the highest viewed tweet under it was someone who said like, you are messing with people's lives. I know people that have like sold their businesses so that they can get access to Fable before it runs out.

Like. I feel like that's a problem. Like if you don't put a limit on your API costs or like if you're telling your partners to use. Do you know what?

I've actually seen the opposite as well though, where it's so powerful and so much fun to use and build out with this stuff now that people become counterproductive because they waste all their time vibe coding instead of just doing the stuff that was already growing their business before. Yeah, I can see that as a good point. Yeah. Yeah.

So that's a good point. It's something to be careful for sure. Yeah. Are you building anything currently, which is like got you super excited?

There's not finished yet, but you're like mid project. That's pretty much it. But like every time we get either a problem inside the community where someone's like, can you do this? For example, the reason we built out the lead generation tool was because someone was like, how do you create leads with AI?

I was like, just use that. And not really, but like every time I see a new update that comes out, I'm like, right, let's plug that in. So every day on a live stream for about three to four hours, I'll just record myself vibe coding into this tool and making it better. That's awesome.

It's so exciting, isn't it? It's nuts. It's a nuts time to live. It's a crazy time to live.

I mean, like the other thing, I don't know whether you've seen this in your own agency, but for us, we are hiring way less, way less. So we're scaling down like pretty much everything because like, for example, our ops manager's KPI is just automate as much as you can, try and cut all the costs you can because you can see where this is going. Like you can see the point where it's like, okay, well, there'll be a point where agents take over and they'll be the ones coming up with the ideas and we won't have anything to do. Well, they're saying that we'll have the one man unicorn, won't we?

The one man unicorn business, like a billion dollar business, one guy, all agents. Like, yeah, I can imagine that. I can imagine that. It could be you, man.

It could be you. Trying, trying my best. Yeah, you'll get there. Just ask that your agentic OS to say, right, look, I want to be a unicorn, do it.

And just, you know, blast through those Fable credits to see how long it takes. It's funny, actually, I had a mate who's, he's a non-SEO, so he's not an SEO person at all. And he used the forward slash goal feature, you know, where you give the agent a job and it just runs off for like autonomously for hours until the job is done. So he said, make me as much money as you can.

And the agent, and the agent has access to everything, like his high level, his email, it's all sorts of crazy stuff that he probably shouldn't give access to. And it started, the way that it found money, the way that it found ways to make money quickly was by selling backlinks on his website directly. And he's like, not an SEO, but the agent just figured it out. He's like, send me a Stripe link and I'll sell this to websites.

And actually, he actually sold quite a few backlinks based on that. No way. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He do need to be careful though.

If that website was important to him and he didn't, and he's got like, he sold a bunch of casino links. Oh yeah, well, I think what, something did backfire where basically it just started messaging everyone on GoHighLevel, like, you know, trying to sell them stuff, trying to sell them random stuff. What agent is, oh yeah, I've got one question for you. I've yet to dive into Hermes or what's the other one?

OpenClaw. Claw, OpenClaw. I'm really comfortable inside of the Claw desktop app. Is that all right just to stay there or am I missing out a bunch of stuff from OpenClaw or Hermes?

No, I think like, if you're happy with one thing, don't overcomplicate it and just stay focused. Again, like you don't want to be distracted or you don't want to spend five hours a day trying to debug all these agents and not really be able to use them. I think honestly for me, like out of everything, Claw is the easiest, the simplest and for 99% of people, that's all they need. Yeah, okay, cool.

Awesome. All right, well, it's a pleasure having you on. Thanks so much. Yeah, thanks Julian.

It's been awesome. I'll be in Bangkok in October. So if you're around, maybe we can get a drink. Yeah, awesome.

Yeah, sounds good. Sounds good. I mean, I don't drink, but we'll get a soda Manal or something like that. That's our coconut water.

Yeah, and is there anything we can link to in the description for people to get in touch? Yeah, if you want to get your first five pieces of tier one coverage, I got a cheat sheet. Go to linkify.io slash cheat dash sheet and it's jam packed. Tell you how exactly how to go and get your first, you know, tier one links.

Perfect, we'll add that inside the description. Thanks so much. Thanks man.